According to the court¡¯s ruling, an astrologist who is hired to predict the future has just as much right to charge for his or her services as does a stock picker or political pollster.

Courts really can nail analogies sometimes.
posted by el io at 5:41 PM on November 18, 2014 [43 favorites]

Here in Boston, fortune tellers are licensed by the city. I attend a fair number of licensing hearings, and it's always disappointing that the members of the licensing board only ever ask about mundane stuff such as signs (a city ordinance requires fortune tellers to list their prices and bans neon signs), and never ask the prospective license holders to prove their bona fides by predicting the future.

But, yes, there was the one time a fortune teller got her license taken away after a client testified how she'd been taken for $5,000. One of the formal charges against her was "obtaining property by trick."
posted by adamg at 6:06 PM on November 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Oh, god. This is a subject close to my heart. The antiquated anti-fortune-telling laws on the books have given way in many U.S. jurisdictions to very expensive licenses that only the fraudsters can afford. The average, non-fraudulent Tarot readers and astrologers of my acquaintance (I know a few dozen) cannot afford to pay the multi-thousand dollar fees required (because they charge small, reasonable amounts for their services), but the store-front scammer psychics can pay the license fees, and they do, because it buys them a lot of leeway, if not essential immunity from the law. There are absolutely good, ethical, non-scammy practitioners out there, but they operate by word of mouth, many belong to some kind of professional organization, and very often teach or write on their subject matter. They are also usually barely making ends meet. TFA is not about them, but it does risk tarring everyone with the same brush.

Just last weekend I heard of a venerable old teacher in the astrology community known to me personally, the author of several very well-known books, who does not provide readings in his home town precisely because of this type of law. Since the license required for "fortune-telling" costs several thousand dollars, he, as an honest practitioner who does it for the love of the thing (and charges on the order of a haircut), cannot afford to pay it.

So, how do you protect yourself against being scammed by "psychics"?

1. Avoid store-front psychics of any kind. If there is a placard, neon sign, neon eye, pyramid, whatever, run the other way. It is guaranteed to be a scam. This rule truly never fails. The one exception in my experience are folks who operate - discreetly - out of reputable occult bookstores as astrologers or Tarot readers. Still, they do not have their own storefront, so the rule holds true.

2. Very cheap readings ($5-10). Inevitably, these are loss leaders for the scammers, who use them to draw in the vulnerable, whom they assess as potential marks.

3. The cheap reading always shows the same thing: the client has been cursed, and needs some kind of special spell-casting, candle-burning, etc. to remove the curse. This is bog-standard, and leads to a request for more money from the client to remove the curse, bad luck, or negative energy. From there, the demands for money only escalate and unfortunate victims find themselves paying tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to these charlatans.

I know folks who make a hobby of getting the cheap readings just for fun, fully knowing they will be cold-read, and just to amuse themselves with the fortune-teller's patter. It's always the same, so after one visits a few "psychics" their m.o. is so identical as to be entertaining. But please, do not mistake them for sincere, non-scammy practitioners.
posted by Atrahasis at 6:17 PM on November 18, 2014 [16 favorites]

So here in Canada we don't just limit it to fraudulently telling fortunes. We also make it a crime to fraudulently pretend to exercise or to use any kind of witchcraft, sorcery, enchantment or conjuration.

One of my close friends had to do his first-year mock court case on that section. It was...hilarious.
posted by Lemurrhea at 6:20 PM on November 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

@Atrahasis, what distinguishes a good tarot reader or astrologer? Not mocking, I'm genuinely curious. I assume he/she isn't really predicting the future, so you must have something else in mind.
posted by sf2147 at 6:24 PM on November 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

Lemurrhea: So it's illegal for priests to turn wine into the blood of Christ?
posted by el io at 6:25 PM on November 18, 2014 [13 favorites]

A guy moved in across the street from me a few weeks ago who "clears" homes remotely. He claims that remote clearing keeps him safe from evil spirits. I wonder if it also serves to keep him safe from prosecution.
posted by Camofrog at 6:26 PM on November 18, 2014

The CFO of my engineering firm confided in me that his wife and mother-in-law each spent around $10k last year paying a woman in Seattle to pray for them. They're on track to spend the same amount this year. She doesn't do it over the phone. She receives their check, cashes it, and then shoots them an email to let them know that she spent x number of hours last week praying for them.

I started to make jokes about how I would do it twice as much for half the price, and then I realized that damn, this dude's family has been taken for twenty grand a year for the past two years, and that shit ain't funny.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 6:31 PM on November 18, 2014 [19 favorites]

Lemurrhea: So it's illegal for priests to turn wine into the blood of Christ?

Nah. Generally speaking, fraudulently requires the practitioner to believe it's fraudulent. It's a-ok for people to perform any form of occult/spiritual/etc practices if they believe in it. It's when they're scammers that it's a criminal act. Same with pretty much everything else.

Also I know I might have opened the door, but it'd be super-cool if this thread wasn't about lolreligion OR loloccultism/lolwhatever (I don't know terms of art in the communities in question).
posted by Lemurrhea at 6:37 PM on November 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

We laugh (or shake our heads) at old-timey prosecutions of "witches", but in many cases this is exactly what the defendants had been accused of. The prosecutors may or may not have believed that the defendants could actually lay or remove curses, but the basis of the prosecution was the same: blackmailing someone by threatening some supernatural intervention.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:37 PM on November 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

Yet televangelistism is still legal.
posted by fshgrl at 6:45 PM on November 18, 2014 [12 favorites]

Sf2147: to answer your question, the goal of good, ethical readers is to provide clients with an insight into their situations, and they would never ask for more money than initially agreed upon as the reading fee. Some might speak of future tendencies if the client continues on their current track, but all the ones I know are fervent believers in free will. In contrast, the store front psychics, as I call them, are basically perpetrating a form of advance fee fraud with occult trappings. "If you pay me $10k now, I'll make you rich later/remove the curse/bring back your ex."
Can astrology/Tarot/divination be used to foretell the future? I believe so, based on my own experience. But that is not at all what is being described in TFA, and is not a necessary part of a good reading.
posted by Atrahasis at 6:46 PM on November 18, 2014

Meanwhile, where I live, this happened a few days ago. We're still shocked.
posted by orrnyereg at 6:53 PM on November 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Last year, detectives in Chinatown reported a rash of grifts with spiritual overtones against elderly immigrant women. Two women would work in tandem: One would approach the victim to ask for directions to a certain healer or fortune-teller, and the other, pretending to be a stranger, would offer to take them both there. Then the two of them would persuade the woman to put her valuables in a bag and hand it over to be blessed. By the time she noticed the bag was switched, the scammers would have disappeared.

Oh man, my (Chinese) in-laws were talking about this last year! They were warning everybody to beware of "hypnotists", i.e. people who would stop you on the street and use con artist pitter-patter for you to give them all your money. There were also NYPD signs warning about this scam pasted inside of the bigger Brooklyn dim sum restaurants.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:54 PM on November 18, 2014 [2 favorites]

"Nah. Generally speaking, fraudulently requires the practitioner to believe it's fraudulent."

Ahh, that's what I was getting at with my question (I didn't mean to get all LOLbeliefsystem with it)... I just wanted to know if the law was essentially biased against belief systems or was going after fraudsters. I read the statute and it wasn't entirely clear to me.

Indeed a lot of folks practice the occult with sincerity. Unfortunately for those seeking the sincere practitioner, the sincere ones are the ones often without storefronts or visible public practices.
posted by el io at 6:55 PM on November 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

Fshfrl wrote: Yet televangelistism is still legal.

Good point. Faith healers use the same techniques, for instance, whether they purport to call on their psychic abilities or the Power of The Lord. I suppose this may be one of those things that's only legal when it's done on a wholesale basis, like wars. Alternatively, large-scale psychic and evangelical healers may build their reputations by treating people for free, but make their money by asking their audience for donations. As long as it isn't fee-for-service their activities would be hard to prosecute.
posted by Joe in Australia at 6:55 PM on November 18, 2014 [3 favorites]

So, how do you protect yourself against being scammed by "psychics"?

4. Don't go to "psychics".
posted by Justinian at 7:14 PM on November 18, 2014 [14 favorites]

I started to make jokes about how I would do it twice as much for half the price, and then I realized that damn, this dude's family has been taken for twenty grand a year for the past two years, and that shit ain't funny.

Sorry. But yes it is.
posted by notreally at 7:33 PM on November 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

eponysterical.
posted by ChuraChura at 7:41 PM on November 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

Lemurrhea beat me to the punch: Canada does indeed have a law on the books prohibiting fake witchcraft. Occasionally this makes the news as "Person X charged with witchcraft," and then everyone asks why on earth we have a law about witchcraft, and it turns out it's to prevent exactly this sort of fraud and has nothing to do with religion or occult beliefs.
posted by chrominance at 7:46 PM on November 18, 2014

ROFL bunco. I had a friend who fell for the "gypsy switch" scam. She got a "psychic reading" and after quite a few cheap sessions to build up trust, she was told there was a financial curse on her, so she should withdraw all her money in cash, wrap it in this blessed scarf, and then the "fortune teller" would perform a ritual to remove the curse, as a free service. At the full moon, they buried the bundle of money in a hidden spot in her backyard, with a raw egg sitting atop the burial site. At the New Moon, she could dig it up and the curse would be lifted. Except when she dug it up, there was nothing in the scarf but cut up newspapers. There were two scarves and two bundles, the "fortune teller" switched them and absconded with the bundle of money. Of course when the New Moon came, the scammer was long gone, and so was my friend's $15,000. She was too embarrassed to go to the police.

So before I give someone a tarot reading, I give them a lengthy lesson on bunco. I tell them about the gypsy switch scam, and that they should never believe anyone who says they have a curse and that it can be removed. I teach them about cold reading, and then I give them a short cold reading, and then I tell them that if they ever catch me saying anything vague and meaningless like that, stop me immediately and call me on it. Then I insist that I will not allow you to ask a question, that would make it too easy for me to make stuff up. It is up to me to discern the question, and if I cannot accurately determine (with no prodding) what their question is, then I am scamming them and they should call me on it. Only after I am satisfied that they understand the scams, will I proceed with the tarot reading.

However, I am beginning to think this is counterproductive. While it may, in the long term, help these people avoid becoming ensnared in scams by phony psychics, I think it may be a subtle scam of its own. It's like a Penn and Teller magic act, where they show you how the trick is done and debunk it, and then they do the trick, and it turns out that wasn't the way the trick was done at all, and you end up more baffled than ever. So I ended up with clients who were even more trusting of my work, despite my constant urging to be skeptical about what I was doing. And nobody has ever called me out.

Even worse, these people begged me to take money for tarot readings. I absolutely refused. And again, this in itself might have been an inadvertent bunco scam. I told them that it was unethical for me to take advantage of the tarot for personal gain, financial or otherwise. And besides, any paltry sum of money you might give me, would be an insult. I give this card reading as a gift to you, I spent decades learning this craft and I am very good at it, please do not spoil my gift. But one woman would refer her friends and make them pressure me to take money. I finally told her that it would be illegal, there was a law against fortune-telling in my city. I went online to read the exact text of the law so I could read it back to her, and to my surprise, the law was revoked quite a few years ago, and I didn't know. Oh well. She said she had watched me do readings, and she saw how much effort I put into it, and how much it took out of me, and that it would not be improper to accept a small token of gratitude, not for the reading, but just to compensate me for the time and effort. Even a modest sum like $10 or $20 would show that people valued my time and effort. She said that people don't value something that is free, as much as something they paid for. I said I would consider it.

But I had my concerns. It is said that if one uses the powers of the tarot for personal gain, those powers can abandon you. So of course the solution is to do a reading for myself, to ask whether it would be ethical and proper to accept money. The answer I got was, I could accept money if I wanted to, it was my choice to make. That was no help whatsoever. But eventually, with some trepidation, I reluctantly decided that I could accept money for doing a tarot reading, with the proviso that I could reject anything that seemed excessive or improper. I told my friend, who said she believed this was the right decision. And to my astonishment, my clients completely disappeared overnight. My referrals evaporated. Most of the circle of friends that got readings, dispersed to other cities, and other bizarre circumstances occurred that resulted in me not doing a single tarot card reading for anybody ever again. Funny how that worked out.
posted by charlie don't surf at 7:53 PM on November 18, 2014 [16 favorites]

charlie, it sounds like by accepting the idea of taking money, you might have brought a financial curse on yourself. Don't worry, as it so happens, I just learned a good way to break it!
posted by jason_steakums at 8:04 PM on November 18, 2014 [13 favorites]

Atrahasis, I know of a fellow living in Florida who would be delighted to give your friend $1M US after a brief demonstration. This money should be enough for your friend to pay for a license.
posted by Warren Terra at 9:30 PM on November 18, 2014 [6 favorites]

I finally told her that it would be illegal, there was a law against fortune-telling in my city. I went online to read the exact text of the law so I could read it back to her, and to my surprise, the law was revoked quite a few years ago, and I didn't know.

You didn't know? But ...
posted by Joe in Australia at 9:37 PM on November 18, 2014 [5 favorites]

Australia also has had similar laws on the books (sometimes as part of vagrancy legislation), in similar terms to the Canadian example (no doubt due to our common legal heritage). Here is the old provision from Victoria's Vagrancy Act 1966:

13. Fortune telling and pretending to exercise witchcraft etc.

Any person who pretends or professes to tell fortunes or uses any subtle craft means or device by palmistry or otherwise to defraud or impose on any other person or pretends to exercise or use any kind of witchcraft sorcery enchantment or conjuration or pretends from his skill or knowledge in any occult or crafty science to discover where or in what manner any goods or chattels stolen or lost may be found shall be guilty of an offence.

I love the use of "crafty science" here. Some jurisdictions still have slightly less colourful versions of this law on their books - South Australia's Summary Offences Act 1953 s 40 ("Acting as a spiritualist, medium etc with intent to defraud") and the Northern Territory's Summary Offences Act s 57(1)(d). The Northern Territory offence requires you to have been found to be a vagrant under s 56 - for example by having on his or her person without lawful excuse any article of disguise...
posted by curious.jp at 9:48 PM on November 18, 2014 [4 favorites]

I wish the law could better distinguish between scammy asshole psychics and those who genuinely seek to help others. I see very little difference between psychic readings and modern psychotherapy; I would say that a higher percentage of psychics are scammers, but I'm really not sure. I know of some therapists who are unhelpful, cynical, jerks; i think somewhere along the line they dissociated as a coping mechanism, and they're now just trying to pay off student loans and mortgages as quickly as possible.

I became utterly convinced of this parallel when my aunt had several sessions with a psychic after her mother died -- lucky for her, she got a 'legit' one. And by legit, I'm not commenting on the psychic's abilities. I have no idea whether this woman was communing with the dead, all I know is, she helped my aunt.

The psychic told my aunt what she needed to hear over the course of a reasonable number of sessions, which cost a reasonable amount of money. At a certain point, the psychic told my aunt the sessions would end soon (I guess her mom had said all she needed to say from 'the beyond'.) My aunt would never go to a therapist, but going to a psychic allowed her to face her grief and get past it as well as any peer-reviewed therapy technique.
posted by lesli212 at 10:19 PM on November 18, 2014 [9 favorites]

Spiritualists running long term grifts to cheat people out of their money for imaginary psychic assistance is repellent.

BTW, my favorite cousin has cancer, but my mom's church is praying for her. They'll be passing the plate around so have cash or check ready.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:27 PM on November 18, 2014 [1 favorite]

The antiquated anti-fortune-telling laws on the books have given way in many U.S. jurisdictions to very expensive licenses that only the fraudsters can afford. The average, non-fraudulent Tarot readers and astrologers of my acquaintance (I know a few dozen) cannot afford to pay the multi-thousand dollar fees required (because they charge small, reasonable amounts for their services), but the store-front scammer psychics can pay the license fees, and they do, because it buys them a lot of leeway, if not essential immunity from the law.

This sounds eerily like taxi medallions, and stinks to high heaven of corruption at some level.

like, holy shit, wow.
posted by emptythought at 10:48 PM on November 18, 2014

13. Fortune telling and pretending to exercise witchcraft etc.

That is an exceptionally strange law. The wording about using any subtle craft etc. to impose on any other person? What does that even mean? Perhaps "impose upon" is a euphemism for sexual coersion? And the prohibition on using occult means to locate lost property seems oddly specific. It appears to apply only to obscure arts of dowsing or horary astrology. And the wording about "pretending to exercise witchcraft etc." seems to be a loophole for those who are actually practicing witchcraft, rather than just pretending to.

And I think that is the point of the main article, as well as these laws. They are not targeted at people who are earnest in their beliefs about occultism. And this puts me in an odd position. My cartomancy instructor said that I have great mystical powers, but unfortunately I don't believe in mystical powers. I have found that belief is unnecessary, one can act as if one believes in a mystical force and get the same results. I do things that some would call psychic, but I do not believe I am psychic. Someone asked me what it was like when I did tarot readings. Did I reach into another dimension? Did I access spirits as a medium? I told him, it was more like doing algebra in your head. You have symbols on cards with certain meanings, they operate on other symbols, it was all a matter of solving these relationships to determine the meaning. And that meaning would be exactly what the person needed to hear.

Nowadays, fortune telling and making predictions are unfashionable in occult circles. It is all about things like "psychological astrology" which is largely derived from Jungian psychology. Psychological Tarot is similarly Jungian. I mostly do psychological tarot readings, showing what influences are on a person and what influences they might use most effectively going forward. But this is all free will stuff. As the saying goes, "the stars impel, they do not compel."
posted by charlie don't surf at 11:28 PM on November 18, 2014 [8 favorites]

I find this fascinating and baffling at the same time - I had no idea there was this kind of legislation, and that it's on a per-city basis (in the US) strikes me as completely bizarre, but I am now off to look into how different places handle the legislation and even licensing. Thanks for the post.

(And I know the debate over the use of the word 'gypsy' is somewhat contentious, but using it to reference certain types of criminal activity is perhaps more clearly not so cool. 'Bless-and-switch scam' captures what it is at least as well, without the weird racist overtones.)
posted by Dysk at 1:19 AM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

That is an exceptionally strange law. The wording about using any subtle craft etc. to impose on any other person? What does that even mean? Perhaps "impose upon" is a euphemism for sexual coersion?

This part of the law is based on the Vagrancy Act of 1824 (1824 ch. 83 5 Geo 4) and I suspect that the language came from earlier, similar Acts.

The word "subtle" in this context means "sly", as in "Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field [...]" (Genesis 3:1). The word "impose" here means to do somebody out of money, as in "imposing a tax". In other words, the things we talked about earlier - charging money for "blessings" or to "lift curses" or what have you.

And the prohibition on using occult means to locate lost property seems oddly specific.

This part of the law seems to come from the Witchcraft Act of 1735 (9 Geo. II c. 5).

Suppose that you happened to be walking along and accidentally came across some silverware that didn't belong to you. You could be hanged at that time, I think, for possession of stolen goods worth a shilling or more, so you would obviously not want to walk around with them. Now, you obviously have it in your power to do the owner a favour by helping him recover his silverware. You and I, of course, would simply walk up to the owner and explain that it had fallen into our pockets accidental-like. But someone else, someone of not so fine a character, might knock on the owner's door and claim to be able to locate "lost" property by occult means. And they would tell the owner that his silverware had been stolen by a magpie (or whatever) and could be found at such and such a place. And they would get a reward for this information.

It's even possible that some fortunetellers would set themselves up in business as recoverers of lost or stolen objects, and that people approaching them would find out which pawnbroker or secondhand-goods dealer had the missing property, which - miraculously! - had just been put on sale that minute. This could become quite a regular pattern of business if you were a fortuneteller of a particular character, and happened to have an arrangement with certain pawnbrokers and the people that supply them. Such a practice is not to be encouraged; and it is, I think, the evil at which this law has been directed.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:10 AM on November 19, 2014 [4 favorites]

There is nothing ethical or good about charging for bullshit.

In a situation where the person charging and the person paying both honestly believe in what is happening, how is it bullshit?

There's a lot of condescension here, and it's quite unnecessary. I don't believe that cards or palm lines have a supernatural ability to tell the future, but I know that decent people derive enjoyment and satisfaction from their belief in these things. It's also perfectly clear that, whatever happens with the cards, it could be helpful to contemplate your life in deliberate refection, consider various influences or components of it in relation to each other, and anticipate how they may interact in the future. People do the same thing with meditation, or therapy, or late night boozy talks with their friends. What do you gain by telling these people that you think it's all a farce? What are they meant to gain from your disdainful criticisms?
posted by twirlypen at 3:15 AM on November 19, 2014 [8 favorites]

Sure, lots of decent people look to that stuff, some for enjoyment. Some are also vulnerable, confused, or grieving, and go there for comfort (ok) or guidance (worrying).
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:49 AM on November 19, 2014

Expensive licenses sound like a stupid idea, but it's worth pointing out (as the article does) that New York State does not offer such licenses. In NY, it is flatly illegal to practice fortune-telling for money. The article does not describe a situation in which decent fortune-tellers have been priced out of the market.

...

I'm surprised that more fortune-telling businesses are not simply money laundering operations and/or fronts. Seems like the officas would be ideal for such tasks: cash flow can be mysterious, start-up resources are minimal, consumables are almost nonexistent, and if anybody drops by to use your business, you can actually do the job.

...

FWIW, I don't think there's anything wrong whatsoever with fortune-telling, as long as you aren't doing this "financial curse" horse hockey.
posted by Sticherbeast at 5:03 AM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

In a situation where the person charging and the person paying both honestly believe in what is happening, how is it bullshit?

You can't imagine a situation where both are mistaken and the bullshit comes from an outside/historical vector? Earnest belief doesn't make something a manifest reality.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 5:05 AM on November 19, 2014 [4 favorites]

I don't really have a religion, and I don't believe in fortunetelling, but I do believe in Tarot readings, and here's why:

I firmly believe that the cards are just meaningful enough, just vague enough, and just polysemous enough, that people (including me) will read whatever they want to into them without realizing that's what their doing. So while a Tarot spread will not tell the reader what circumstances surround the readee (sometimes the same person), the interpretation of the spread *will* tell the reader how the readee *percieves* their circumstances, in a way which gets past concious defenses, which is perhaps even more useful than if the cards were actually magical.

For example. When I have trouble making a decision, it's usually because I'm not sure what I want, or not comfortable with what I want. Tarot helps me to be more confident in the decision I secretly already made by bringing my desires closer to the surface.

In summary, Tarot is a land of contrasts.

Sorry for typos, ipad post.
posted by yeolcoatl at 6:06 AM on November 19, 2014 [6 favorites]

.. something not being manifest reality does not necessarily make it bullshit.

Wuh ? Come again ?
posted by Pendragon at 6:41 AM on November 19, 2014

they're probably better than Myers-Briggs
posted by thelonius at 6:47 AM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

There is nothing ethical or good about charging for bullshit. Of course alternative medicine and churches get away with it, but that doesn't make them ethical.

Does that include talk therapy? Because in a FPP from the other day, the linked article cited a meta-analysis that found CBT seems to alleviate depression 42% to 66% of the time -- and scientists don't really know why some individuals and populations respond to treatment but others don't. So all the resources of Modern Science have gotten us to a place where your chance of getting rid of depression with the best available talk therapy is perhaps a little better than a coin flip.

Of course, I doubt anyone would conclude from this that we should abandon all forms of psychotherapy, just because 34%-58% of people end up spending their money on what turns out to be bullshit.

Churches help a lot of people. Psychics help a lot of people. Like I said upthread, we should seek to eliminate bad faith actors, not throw out systems that helped people for thousands of years before modern talk therapy was developed.
posted by lesli212 at 6:52 AM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

And similarly, something not being manifest reality does not necessarily make it bullshit.

The placebo effect, for example. The placebo condition is supposed to be a null treatment, but it turns out the theatrics of "nothing" have a real, measurable effect. A placebo treatment -- a non-manifestation of a cure if you will -- turns out to be a real cure in some cases.

I'm obviously not saying we should all go out and take sugar pills for broken bones, but if someone with liver damage can "cure" their headaches with a homeopathic, why should that person switch to Tylenol?
posted by lesli212 at 6:59 AM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

So all the resources of Modern Science have gotten us to a place where your chance of getting rid of depression with the best available talk therapy is perhaps a little better than a coin flip.

I get your point but I think this statement is misleading. If CBT can alleviate depression in ~50% of people that try it I would consider that an extraordinarily effective treatment.

Personally I don't believe in any supernatural stuff (including religion), but if things like tarot or readings involve extended conversations and physically "reading" someone's body language etc., it seems obvious how they could have a real (potentially positive) effect on someone. Some people seem to need insight to be dressed up in the trappings of god, magic, or something bigger than reality so that they feel compelled to make changes. "God/your dead parent/the spirits want you to apply for this job" is better for them than just a friend or counselor saying "you should try for that job".
posted by freecellwizard at 7:53 AM on November 19, 2014

Nygaard, the private investigator, says he receives dozens of calls from people like college professors, CEOs, doctors, and lawyers who feel their reputations are worth more than, say, the $200,000 they were scammed out of by a psychic.

I guess many of us aren't above being taken in by the right scam, but I just don't get this at all. How does someone get through medical school, law school, or a PhD without acquiring enough critical thinking skills to avoid these frauds? The amount that Ali Beck threw at this scam could have gotten her all the real therapy she needed 20 times over. (Or, alternatively, she could pay off my student loan and get weekly one hour phone sessions/candle lighting ceremonies with me for the remainder of our lives.)*

*This offer is open to anyone with $50,000 to spare. Two hours sessions/higher quality candles available for an additional $50,000.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:15 AM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

... average, non-fraudulent Tarot readers and astrologers ...

Honestly, I didn't know that it was still possible to put those words together in a sentence that way.

In a situation where the person charging and the person paying both honestly believe in what is happening, how is it bullshit?

When someone is guilty of overt deceit, I don't give them any ethical brownie points just because they've succeeded in deceiving themselves along with other people.
posted by Flexagon at 8:47 AM on November 19, 2014 [2 favorites]

How does someone get through medical school, law school, or a PhD without acquiring enough critical thinking skills to avoid these frauds?

When someone is in a crisis in their lives, sometimes the more conventionally 'successful' will look for a more non-conventional answer to a question that convention, so far, has not answered to their satisfaction. A person can be blindingly rational PhD, but reason doesn't answer the question of why their partner won't be faithful to them; why their perfectly healthy young child suddenly has a wasting disease; why the market tanked and now their dreams are up in smoke. If it seems like a freakin' cosmic joke to a poor soul suffering, why not take a long shot and consult a cosmic source for the answer?

The fact that there are hucksters out there that will take advantage of people in a bind is the incredulous thing - it's like charging $50 a gallon for gas during Hurricane Katrina - not that there are people in a bind that are not acting rationally. These kinds of decisions are made not with the rational, but with the emotive mind.
posted by eclectist at 9:03 AM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]

Spiritualists running long term grifts to cheat people out of their money for imaginary psychic assistance is repellent.

BTW, my favorite cousin has cancer, but my mom's church is praying for her. They'll be passing the plate around so have cash or check ready.

I realize it is tempting to believe that every person with a different belief system than yours is an easily taken rube and that all houses of worship are the Bakkers redux, but your implication is an odd one. The fact that houses of worship don't report their income and operating expenses to the government does not mean they don't report them to their own members. Many of them list their weekly expenses right in the bulletin (or weekly email) so that people can see the average cost to keep the church open, to keep the food bank running, to keep the homeless ministry funded, to keep the lightbulbs on for the services you may enjoy.

I live in a county with pitiful social services for rural citizens, and so there is an interfaith network dedicated to making the homes of the disabled and elderly accessible by wheelchair. (There shouldn't have to be, but there you are.) Congregations are given the cost estimates and they donate accordingly. Also, literally every church I have ever regularly attended has prefaced the passing of the plate with asking visitors NOT to give.

There are churches that scam people, and psychic readers who scam people, and hospitals that scam people, and taffy store owners who scam people, and Little League coaches who have lifted credit card numbers from uniform order forms to scam people. People in literally every institution in history have made use of those institutions to scam people, but to imply that any request for funding for any of the first two is therefore immoral seems bizarre. Lots of people join groups or clubs and pay dues bc they enjoy going and want the group/club to be able to keep meeting. Let's not pretend that this is an inherently malevolent scenario once some form of spirituality is involved.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:19 AM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]

I was really hoping someone would bring this angle into it: the predators who prey on the grieving (like the late, ungreat Sylvia Browne). There is a show they are teasing right now called Psychic Intervention and it looks like the worst of this genre (see also, John Edward). So awful.
posted by fiercecupcake at 10:25 AM on November 19, 2014 [3 favorites]

Preying on the grieving is indeed the lowest of the low.

Another issue (as I see it) is that many people going to psychics are at a crossroads. "What should I do with my career", "is my husband cheating, should I leave him", etc. etc. They're not always looking for mere reflection or comfort - many want augurs. With desperation and confusion fuelling that seeking, and a willingness to believe, in the context of that theatre, those vague symbols in the cards, or the little details of a psychic's visions, take on a certainty that can drive self-fulfilling prophecies.

Obviously, people will take what they will from whatever their eyes fall upon when they're looking for meaning, but there is a subtle suggestion here that can be dangerous, imo. There's no one checking in on that interaction.

Communities of faith do often have advisors and norms that guide behaviour, true, but these are publicly negotiated - there are councils, what have you. When a spiritual leader actively drives the actions of particular followers in specific directions, people usually get justifiably concerned. Same for therapists.

It's not just another palliative.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:47 PM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

Another issue (as I see it) is that many people going to psychics are at a crossroads.

Every day, every moment, is a crossroads. I think what you mean is that many people seek extraordinary means of bringing order to extraordinary events and circumstances that seem inexplicable and beyond their control. Just seeing a pattern can bring order to chaos. If a situation is beyond rational analysis, perhaps a mystical overview may bring order, if not resolution, and give comfort where it can seem impossible.

I personally would never do a tarot reading for anyone during a crisis. Ideally, it should be done at arbitrary but significant times, like a birthday or at the start of a new year, which are good times to evaluate a past year and set determinations for the upcoming one.

Communities of faith do often have advisors and norms that guide behaviour, true, but these are publicly negotiated - there are councils, what have you.

Yes, there are explicit codes of ethics that accompany certifications, but there are also norms that are commonly held. For example, I recall having a conversation with my cartomancy instructor about making predictions. Although it is quite possible to make specific predictions in some circumstances, it would be unethical to do so, since it would likely become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There are certain areas of traditional occult practices that encounter legal difficulties, such as medical astrology. These activities would generally fall under laws prohibiting practicing medicine without a license. Ethical astrologers wouldn't go anywhere near this subject. And then, some astrologers I respect have gone to reputable universities and received advanced degrees and subsequent licensing in areas like social work, counseling, psychology, etc. in order to ensure they are familiar with the ethics of spiritual advice, as well as the legalities.

As for myself, I view these mystical things as a personal spiritual practice, something sadly lacking in my own generally rationalistic, scientific, and materialistic approach to reality. A life of mere physical existence seems to trivialize the human experience. Or perhaps this is just a natural tendency to self-aggrandizement, to believe that our lives are more just what we experience on the physical plane. I believe these practices are transformative, in that we can consciously create our own self-fulfilling prophecies. There is nothing very mystical about that.
posted by charlie don't surf at 7:30 PM on November 19, 2014 [1 favorite]

Afaik, ebay still allows the selling of potions, charms and spells. If you have an hour or two to waste its a delightful rabbithole to fall into.
posted by fshgrl at 8:40 PM on November 19, 2014