Comments on: Free Energy Tomorrow

Free Energy Tomorrow

Optimus Chyme — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:12:45 -0800

Previously featured on MetaFilter, "Free Energy" company Steorn had scheduled a demonstration of their revolutionary, world-changing, physics-defying contraption Orbo to open today at London's Kinetica Museum. But due to "intense heat" from camera lighting, their fake invention isn't working today. Here's the live web feed of an empty box. Incidentally, it seems that the Steorn folks have allies in high - very high - places.

By: jonson

jonson — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:18:00 -0800

Curse you first law of thermodynamics & your unwavering insistence on energy transference!!! Also: curse my sad, sad guillibility that spark a .0001% chance that this might actually be a real invention. Stupid, naive jonson.

By: notsnot

notsnot — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:22:24 -0800

Why do people believe this shit?

By: Afroblanco

Afroblanco — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:23:02 -0800

"In this house, we follow the rules of thermodynamics, young lady. Go to your room!"

By: stbalbach

stbalbach — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:23:43 -0800

Will it be working tomorrow? Or did the camera lights represent an unsurmountable technical challenge?

By: vernondalhart

vernondalhart — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:25:26 -0800

From the last link: Sean McCarthy and Richard Walshe, the two boffins behind Steorn Research unveiled their latest gizmo: The Orbo, a magnetic engine which according to carefully controlled experiments can produce up to three times as much energy as is put into it,effectively creating an infinite amount of energy from apparently nowhere. I do not think that word means what you think it means.

By: filmgeek

filmgeek — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:30:41 -0800

It works, only if it's completely, totally dark. Let's just turn out all the lights here. Now, it should work, right?

By: weapons-grade pandemonium

weapons-grade pandemonium — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:32:27 -0800

But just imagine if we did have an infinite source of energy. All our environmental problems would be over. No, wait...

By: BeerFilter

BeerFilter — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:34:39 -0800

Damn it, I figured we'd make it through this without it getting posted to the blue. It's been on digg, slashdot and engadget for a couple days now. Seriously, if the thing worked, we'll find out about it soon enough. Don't give these assholes any more attention than they deserve.

By: hydrophonic

hydrophonic — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:35:41 -0800

Who are these allies in very high places? Is overwhelmingevidence.com backed by someone big?

By: empath

empath — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:36:14 -0800

that would be the big G.

By: jellicle

jellicle — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:37:21 -0800

Quelle surprise. No perpetual motion device post is complete without a link to TimeCube. Flagged as noise.

By: DU

DU — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:39:16 -0800

I had to read that post 3 times before I realized that "overwhelming evidence" wasn't a reference to science but to the existence of God. Oh the irony!

By: TechnoLustLuddite

TechnoLustLuddite — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:40:08 -0800

Very High places indeed:

"The materialists are utterly convinced that 'free energy' is impossible, but they have totally ignored well documented evidence of miracles (e.g. walking on water, reviving the dead). Let me explain: Such acts would have required a great deal of energy brought in from apparently nowhere." You See? The energy doesn't come from "nowhere," it comes from Jesus! It's well-documented!

By: The Ultimate Olympian

The Ultimate Olympian — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:42:21 -0800

I do not think that word means what you think it means. Inconceivable as it may seem, I do not think you're quoting what you think you're quoting. "You keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

By: a robot made out of meat

a robot made out of meat — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:44:22 -0800

Yeah, I'd heard of this before. However, humiliating public failure of those who think that math/physics is somehow optional to their lives is always worth seeing. Point and laugh, children!

By: azlondon

azlondon — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:45:18 -0800

Aha! - Just make the next machine work off the 'intense heat' from the camera lights and you will have a license to print money.

By: three blind mice

three blind mice — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:49:21 -0800

The Orbo, a magnetic engine which according to carefully controlled experiments can produce up to three times as much energy as is put into it,effectively creating an infinite amount of energy from apparently nowhere. No, no, no. It's not called Orbo, her name is Paris Hilton.

By: adamrice

adamrice — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:54:30 -0800

If only there were a way to harness all the attention these guys were getting, they'd really have their perpetual-motion machine.

By: StarForce5

StarForce5 — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:55:54 -0800

The oil industry sabotaged it!

By: weapons-grade pandemonium

weapons-grade pandemonium — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:57:48 -0800

I thought people who believed in intelligent design would be designed to have their designs work immediately.

By: Pastabagel

Pastabagel — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 07:58:12 -0800

I once had someone tell me that they invented a car that would run forever. See the car was powered with electric batteries that would drive a motor to turn the wheels. The wheels, however, were basically dynamos that would generate electricity as they rotated. He had drawings and everything. He said, "so the energy used to turn the wheels is recreated by the turning wheels!" I just looked at him.

By: Dipsomaniac

Dipsomaniac — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:02:20 -0800

If not for thermodynamics and law enforcement, I'd be unstoppable!

By: weapons-grade pandemonium

weapons-grade pandemonium — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:05:22 -0800

Have you heard about those cars that run on grain?

By: roll truck roll

roll truck roll — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:09:23 -0800

Wait, this is real? Last year I looked at the website for about 5 minutes and assumed it was marketing for a movie.

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:13:47 -0800

Ah, pure marketing: All heat, no light.

By: IronLizard

IronLizard — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:18:03 -0800

He said, "so the energy used to turn the wheels is recreated by the turning wheels!" Haha. I met a guy who thought you could plug a generator into a transformer and back into the generator to produce free power forever. When I tried to explain the problems inherent in his hypothesis, his eyes just glazed over.

By: WinnipegDragon

WinnipegDragon — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:18:13 -0800

Damn Al Qaeda and their infernal freedom hating camera lights.

By: Ynoxas

Ynoxas — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:18:17 -0800

I do not think that word means what you think it means. posted by vernondalhart at 9:25 AM on July 5 Of course it does. The whole promise of these kind of "free energy" machines is that they produce more energy than fed into them. So, suppose you have a machine that will produce 2 watts when 1 watt of energy is fed into it. Then, you take 1 of the 2 watts of output and feed it back into the machine, thereby having a continuous "free" output of 1 watt, forever. Of course nothing like this will ever take place. To our current understanding it is truly impossible. As you can imagine, producing a machine that could even return 100% of the energy put into it (i.e. no loss) would be a huge technological leap. Something that produced 101% of the energy put into it would quite literally change our world. Any possible advances in this realm would certainly be revolutionary at the 100.001% or 100.1% level. Therefore, hearing claims of 2-3 times as much energy produced can be dismissed out of hand.

By: Artful Codger

Artful Codger — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:19:04 -0800

Just a note to advise that the obligatory "I for one welcome our new Orbo overlords" will be delayed til technical problems are resolved (or intelligently redesigned). In the meantime we will set up one of these to amuse the kids and the press

By: Artful Codger

Artful Codger — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:20:02 -0800

crap. fixed link

By: felix betachat

felix betachat — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:21:24 -0800

Ah, brethren, there is a perpetual motion machine, and it is connected to Jesus: See, whenever this bullshit starts flowing, the humble Galilean carpenter whose heartfelt concern was for the poor, the downtrodden and the wretched begins to spin in whatever rude grave his corpse was laid. That spinning continues, impelled by an unknown force and were we but able to discover that grave, and to harness that energy, we could enjoy the benefits of unlimited power. For we will always have idiots like this among us.

By: Rubbstone

Rubbstone — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:22:20 -0800

Of course nothing like this will ever take place. To our current understanding it is truly impossible. Not to side with the free energy people but what we currently understand and what is possible are related but not identical sets

By: Nquire

Nquire — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:22:24 -0800

Just to play devil's advocate, the earlier demos were made with plastic. Maybe the device couldn't take the heat from the lights? While zero-point energy is real - i.e. getting energy from quantum particles popping in and out of existence at Planck scales - it seems a tad unlikely that a macroscopic device could get energy this way.

By: Skorgu

Skorgu — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:24:10 -0800

One of these days I'm going to get around to casting a nice, official-looking Thermodynamics Police badge.

By: weapons-grade pandemonium

weapons-grade pandemonium — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:28:28 -0800

Artful Codger: It is conceivable that these guys are trying to run a radiometer off the camera lights, and are pulling the old "reverse psychology" trick so we don't suspect that.

By: cillit bang

cillit bang — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:30:07 -0800

Any possible advances in this realm would certainly be revolutionary at the 100.001% or 100.1% level. Therefore, hearing claims of 2-3 times as much energy produced can be dismissed out of hand. We're making rules for what a credible perpetual motion machine would look like?

By: smackwich

smackwich — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:35:48 -0800

Even the fucking perpetual motion machine remembered to take the 5th off. And yet, here I am, still in the office, hungover.

By: Pastabagel

Pastabagel — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:42:51 -0800

So, suppose you have a machine that will produce 2 watts when 1 watt of energy is fed into it. Then, you take 1 of the 2 watts of output and feed it back into the machine, thereby having a continuous "free" output of 1 watt, forever. Then, you take the other 1 Watt and you put it in the bank to earn interest. At a rate of 6%, your original 1 Watt of power will double to 2 Watts in 12 years. You know what they saw, a ~~penny~~ Watt saved is a ~~penny~~ Watt earned!

By: Pastabagel

Pastabagel — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:43:45 -0800

You know what they say. Dammit!

By: boo_radley

boo_radley — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:48:16 -0800

I built plans for a perpetual motion machine once. My analysis showed that it would provide twice the energy provided it. Unfortunately, it required all of the energy in the universe as well as all of the matter. My funding was denied, and the university deans called me a madman.

By: Kid Charlemagne

Kid Charlemagne — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:48:52 -0800

If only there were a way to harness all the attention these guys were getting... It's been done and much to the betterment of mankind! Think of them as a low potential where we shunt the derision and mockery that we might actually bring to bear on co-workers, friends, family, even ourselves. Imagine your son got into a fender bender, or your spouse ran up the credit card on something you didn't really need anyway, or your boss just told you that no one actually needed the information he had you spend the better part of the day putting together. Now compare that to publicly unveiling a non-functioning Jehovatron. I feel better already.

By: Cool Papa Bell

Cool Papa Bell — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:54:23 -0800

As you can imagine, producing a machine that could even return 100% of the energy put into it (i.e. no loss) would be a huge technological leap. This isn't a "huge technological leap." It is fucking impossible. Calling it a "huge technological leap" infers a possibility, and that tantalizing possibility only feeds the yahoos. The only way to kill yahoos is with sunshine and clarity. Now, say it with me: You can't win. You can't break even. You can't get out of the game.

By: Kid Charlemagne

Kid Charlemagne — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:56:00 -0800

Make magazine did an issue a while back on "fringe technology" including a couple people who build models of various perpetual motion machines. What is interesting is that a lot of them aren't just not perpetual motion machines, they're actually less effective than a big damn flywheel.

By: zemblamatic

zemblamatic — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:57:32 -0800

If only there were a way to harness all the attention these guys were getting... I think they may be working on that themselves... I'm sure a few wide-eyed 'investors' have already been offered the thing at a low, low price.

By: progosk

progosk — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 08:59:39 -0800

Camera 1, 2, 3, 4. How few, small halogens do you see in that gallery (camera 4)? (Re: camera 3: is this all just a surreptitious campaign for iMacs? Or for adidas - "impossible is nothing"?)

By: Navelgazer

Navelgazer — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:04:48 -0800

Pastabagel: I tried to convince my teachers of that very same car design when I was about ten years old, which is when they described entropy to me. But what did they know. Materialists. (I think it a little bit awesome that the fundy-train is now so off-the-rails batshit insane that it'll tie itself to any fly-by-night scam science in the hope of proving conventional science wrong.) 1. Disprove any scientific law, whether it has to do with ID or not. 2. ??? 3. Rapture!

By: Bort

Bort — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:14:21 -0800

Use of the term "impossible" and perpetual motion.

By: absalom

absalom — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:18:15 -0800

Pastabagel: I sketched the same invention. I was eight.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:21:20 -0800

You know what's funny? All those evangelicals out in the midwest who believe that God speaks through them in tongues and all that? You know, the ones who pray for GWB to win elections, and for abortion doctors to die, and for muslims to die and for gays to die and all that? You know what I never hear about them praying for? That's right, renewable energy. Or a reduction in our oil dependancy. Fucking weird, right? You'd think someone would have pointed out that Jesus would totally fucking ROCK if he could do that for us, right?

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:22:22 -0800

But no. no. let's just keep praying that JK Rowling dies. that's a much better idea.

By: jeffamaphone

jeffamaphone — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:26:07 -0800

The second law of thermodynamics is fucking sexy. Would you really want to live in a world where it didn't hold? Beauty is only important because it is ephemeral.

By: It's Raining Florence Henderson

It's Raining Florence Henderson — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:34:34 -0800

The first law of thermodynamics is "don't talk about the second law of thermodynamics."

By: zemblamatic

zemblamatic — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:41:05 -0800

These guys got the laws of Thermodynamics repealed. Welcome to a new reality.

By: Emanuel

Emanuel — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:41:35 -0800

My worry is that, someday, someone will actually come up with a "free energy" machine that actually works. Everyone will wonder how that can possibly be, but we accept it, because it works. And then, 50 years down the line when this miraculous energy source is in wide use, we figure out where that energy was coming from, and it turns out to not be as free as we thought, leading to some kind of global calamity. Also, doesn't it strike anyone as odd that this is being unvailed at a museum? Maybe this is just a hoaxy art project?

By: jeffamaphone

jeffamaphone — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:44:28 -0800

I propose the following as the Fourth Law of Thermodynamics: Anyone claiming to be able to violate laws 1 through 3 will always get more attention than they deserve.

By: It's Raining Florence Henderson

It's Raining Florence Henderson — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:45:54 -0800

I built a free energy machine. It works, too. Try it! Come on - you'll love it, I promise. Well - the first hit's free anyway...

By: leapfrog

leapfrog — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:53:58 -0800

This is an excellent opportunity to bring up the turbo-encabulator and its cousin, the retro-encabulator. These incredible machines are an advance in science and technology, replacing the usual methods of generating energy through the relative motion of conductors and fluxes with modial interactions of magnetoreluctance and capactive diractance.

By: Pastabagel

Pastabagel — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:55:20 -0800

I love how many people also came up with the car wheel generator thing as kids. If I may paraphrase Churchill, if you design a perpetual motion machine as a child, you are bright. If you design one as an adult, you're an idiot. I didn't come up with the car wheel thing myself. Mine was a solar panel that was connected to a big lamp that would shine back on the panel. I called it my "solar feedback lamp" (feedback is so sciency). See, the sun shines on the panel and generates some amount of power, which is fed to the lamp to make it produce light. The lamp shines its light on the panel, creating a total amount of light greater than the sun alone, which in turn causes the solar panel to generate more power than with the sun alone. This extra power would then be fed back into the lamp, creating more light and more power, etc. * files for patent, gets rich, rules world with iron fist, rationalizes not reading The Call of the Wild for English class based on aforementioned pseudoscience and megalomania.

By: mr_roboto

mr_roboto — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:56:45 -0800

You know, we do have a practically infinite supply of free energy ripe for the taking should we ever develop a good method of harvesting it. Our planet is orbiting it.

By: Pastabagel

Pastabagel — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 09:59:05 -0800

By: It's Raining Florence Henderson

It's Raining Florence Henderson — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:01:12 -0800

If we could harness all the brain power expended on this subject over the years we could toast bread. Lightly.

By: drhydro

drhydro — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:13:35 -0800

Skorgu: One of these days I'm going to get around to casting a nice, official-looking Thermodynamics Police badge. OOooh! Oooh! Can I have one to wear with my "Why, yes, I am a rocket scientist" button?

By: Malor

Malor — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:13:55 -0800

Y'ever notice how these perpetual motion machines always involve magnets? It's nearly a certain bet that the Free Energy Machine Du Jour will have 'magnet' or 'magnetic' in the description somewhere. I guess there's just something about the invisible action at a distance that attracts magical thinking.

By: It's Raining Florence Henderson

It's Raining Florence Henderson — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:15:48 -0800

Magnetic attraction is SCIENCE!

By: empath

empath — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:16:38 -0800

We do kind of have 'free energy' machines--- solar panels, hydroelectric power, tidal power, wind power, geothermal power, etc.

By: inigo2

inigo2 — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:24:26 -0800

You know, we do have a practically infinite supply of free energy ripe for the taking should we ever develop a good method of harvesting it. Our planet is orbiting it. Put a millions of tiny harnesses on mice, and let them chase the cheese that makes up the moon?

By: Moistener

Moistener — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:27:31 -0800

You're stupid to try. You're stupid to believe that the fundamentals of science can change. If it was possible, scientists would already know about it. Outsiders are never the ones that transform closely held beliefs -- change always emerges from those scientists who closely hold said beliefs. There is no inertia in science whatsoever. Scientists are a special type of human, immune to cognitive biases and emotional loyalties. Scientists have no fear of exploring fringe topics. There are no vested interests in keeping things the same. There are no cogent reports of suppression within the scientific community. There are no scientists who have lost standing because they publicly challenged the status quo. Scientists are immune to groupthink.

By: 0xFCAF

0xFCAF — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:28:21 -0800

I liked this better when people thought it was part of a viral marketing campaign.

By: Cool Papa Bell

Cool Papa Bell — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:28:51 -0800

We do kind of have 'free energy' machines Don't forget the various space tether experiments.

By: 0xFCAF

0xFCAF — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:43:41 -0800

Moistener, it looks like you're trying to be sarcastic, but it's not working.

By: Moistener

Moistener — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 10:54:01 -0800

Is so.

By: Cool Papa Bell

Cool Papa Bell — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:06:40 -0800

You're stupid to try. You're stupid to try stupid things. Or, as Forrest's mom would say, stupid is as stupid does.

By: 2sheets

2sheets — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:32:16 -0800

The fundie christian angle is so cute.

By: Malor

Malor — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:44:24 -0800

Moistener: breakthroughs are certainly possible, but if you'll notice, nothing really major in science has been overturned in decades. Rather, existing theories are generally shown to be special cases of more advanced ones. And we're not doing much in the way of basic research anymore, just the applied kind, and that doesn't often lead to breakthroughs. So yes, it's possible for two guys in a garage to overthrow the entire scientific domain. It's also possible to win the lottery. Offhand, I'd say you'd be much better off buying lottery tickets than paying attention to anyone claiming to disprove any of the really fundamental tenets of physical science. There will be, probably, at least one more major, fundamental breakthrough... if we ever figure out how to unify quantum mechanics and relativity into one unified theory, that will certainly change things. But even then, it's probably not going to overthrow quantum mechanics or relativity, it'll just show them to be special cases of something bigger. One thought that comes to mind: maybe there is a source of free energy out there. But tapping into it could be dangerous.... unlimited free energy means enough power to create an entire universe. The Big Bang might have been caused by some 9-tentacled, socially rejected monstrosity tinkering in his basement -- and I bet it was hard on the neighborhood.

By: knapah

knapah — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:44:40 -0800

If we ever invent a machine such as this we'll later discover the energy is coming from a parallel universe. The residents of that parallel universe will discover our flagrant theft of their energy and will then develop a weapon they can use against us in self-defence. And they'd be right to use it!

By: bonehead

bonehead — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:47:29 -0800

You're stupid to try stupid things. More importantly, you're stupid to try a con in public.

By: It's Raining Florence Henderson

It's Raining Florence Henderson — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:49:58 -0800

The residents of that parallel universe will discover our flagrant theft of their energy and will then develop a weapon they can use against us in self-defence. Their weapon will undoubtedly involve magnets. And Paris Hilton.

By: Kid Charlemagne

Kid Charlemagne — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 11:50:52 -0800

I can explain why it always comes back to magnets: "The magnetic field is the relativistic component of the electric field". There's a lot to that phrase. As to scientific group think, well, search around on that phrase and you'll find a whole mess of people who seem way eager to debate that. I didn't go wading through the whole thing, but if you're worried about loosing standing it probably doesn't make sense to act as though every modification of electric field theory is a personal attack on Marconi, Fermi and yourself. I've always had good luck with the phrase, "This suggests...." but what do I know.

By: forrest

forrest — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:04:24 -0800

These guys got the laws of Thermodynamics repealed. Welcome to a new reality. Naw, they didn't repeal the laws, they just added a signing statement saying the laws wouldn't be enforced for their particular invention. Bort's link reminds me of grad school: when any of the locals came up with an idea for perpetual motion, they would usually ask the college for an endorsement. The EE faculty would snap them up and assign a grad student to explain to them what was wrong with their idea. I got one of the car ideas ("Waddya mean there's friction -- I greased the wheels!") plus the cow magnet on the fuel line idea.

By: quin

quin — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:06:42 -0800

And then, 50 years down the line when this miraculous energy source is in wide use, we figure out where that energy was coming from, and it turns out to not be as free as we thought, leading to some kind of global calamity. I've worked out a way around that; My free energy machine is going to run off of people's prayers. But in order for it to work, people really, really have to pray hard for it to keep going. They need to become monk-like in their devotion to providing the spiritual energy which will maintain their flow of electricity. In order for this to be possible, people are going to have to essentially turn my machine into their God. The only thing that they will discover missing in 50 years is their souls, which I will now possess. And those souls will power my next evil invention; the gun which I will use to blow up my ancient enemy... the moon.

By: aramaic

aramaic — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:13:22 -0800

"plus the cow magnet on the fuel line idea" ...I bet that was a lot less exciting than it sounds.

By: Ynoxas

Ynoxas — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:15:26 -0800

Cool Papa Bell: I guess you missed the two places in my post where I explicitly said "nothing like this will ever take place" and "truly impossible". I'm sorry that my pronouncements were not strong enough for you.

By: hattifattener

hattifattener — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:20:50 -0800

My childhood perpetual-motion machine was a car powered by pulling a string — that is, it unwinds from a drum, turns gears, turns the wheels — but with the string tied to a fixed post. If you adjust the gear ratio juuuust right then, given a push, it should shoot off at ever-increasing velocity! I actually built one out of Legos but somehow I never got it to work. I'm sure that if my parents had simply bought me more Lego Technics sets that I could have succeeded. I blame society. They laughed at me at the Academy, but one day I'll show them all! They'll rue the day!

By: Cool Papa Bell

Cool Papa Bell — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:32:12 -0800

I guess you missed the two places in my post where I explicitly said "nothing like this will ever take place" and "truly impossible". Your attempt to back out now and accuse me of misreading you is somewhat lame, considering these two "pronouncements" were modifying the sentence before it, not the one after, but thanks for the apology anyway.

By: Skorgu

Skorgu — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:40:40 -0800

Hmm, oddly my first perpetual motion machine involved a sailboat with a fan aboard. *deputizes drhydro* I'm trying to come up with a Thermodynamics Police jingle, but I just can't make it scan with the Men In Black theme.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:41:00 -0800

I actually have a perpetual motion machine in my house. It runs on Jesus. I just prayed and prayed and prayed for Jesus to power my perpetual motion machine, and he did. This is because Jesus makes all things possible, including unicorns, zombies and this dress shirt he gave me that is both 100% cotton and 100% silk.

By: jeffamaphone

jeffamaphone — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 12:44:21 -0800

I want to be a ThermoCop too.

By: tommasz

tommasz — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:12:05 -0800

P.T. Barnum would be so proud.

By: Quonab

Quonab — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:18:49 -0800

I want to be a ThermoCop too. Together, you can be a ThermoCouple.

By: Durhey

Durhey — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:36:53 -0800

Incidentally, it seems that the Steorn folks have allies in high - very high - places. Anyone allied with this nonsense must indeed be very high. Hey, if you rearrange the letters in "Steorn", you get "Stoner". Hmmm...

By: Navelgazer

Navelgazer — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 13:58:22 -0800

I also had the idea, when I was a kid, of finding the right trajectory to launch a craft into orbit at the right speed and angle where the continuous free-fall would continually increase velocity, and the lack of atmosphere would keep it from attaining terminal velocity, so that it would eventually go faster than the speed of light. My idea will be considered valid until somebody demonstrably proves me false. I'll wanna see the specs on the craft, people!

By: alby

alby — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 14:31:35 -0800

It won't work, obviously. But imagine that it did... The world would be a Very Different Place™.

By: aeschenkarnos

aeschenkarnos — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:09:17 -0800

empath brings up an excellent point: solar energy is, from a certain point of view, perpetual motion. I could put out a solar array in the sunshine, hook up a battery array to it to keep the energy flowing at night, and have what for my purposes is a perpetual source of free energy. It actually isn't, of course, it is powered by the sun. But we don't have to pay for the sun to keep shining. Neither do we have to pay for the wind, the earth's magnetic field or the moon's gravity. So, something that runs off these is free energy too, from our point of view. I'm emphatically not crediting Steorn with this: but since we have not reached the "end of science", at some point some other equivalent effect, from which "free energy" may be leached with an appropriate device, may be discovered. The argument against this proposition is that undiscovered motive forces, or forces converted in nature to motive forces, will have to be below our ability to notice them; and we're awfully good at noticing things moving, and getting better all the time.

By: Avenger

Avenger — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:49:39 -0800

I once had the idea of using Dark Energy^ as a revolutionary power source for the future. Since the cosmological constant fills space equally in all directions, you could use a Dark Energy Reactor anywhere and it would appear to be drawing energy from nothingness. The downside? Well, the more you use the Reactor, the slower the Universe will expand. (!!!) This is because you're taking the Dark "expansion" Energy and turning it into heat or light for your own purposes. If you have enough Reactors running long enough, at some point the Universe would cease to expand and begin to contract on itself. The only way to "save" the Universe, at that point, would be to find a way to somehow turn regular matter and energy back into Dark Energy. I envision an advanced civilization desperately ripping apart entire galaxies just to make enough Dark Energy to move us back over the tipping point again. Wouldn't that be a great thing to invent?

By: Malor

Malor — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 16:50:51 -0800

By: IronLizard

IronLizard — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 17:10:38 -0800

Oh no. Those evil scientists are trying to stop the sun from rising.

By: dances_with_sneetches

dances_with_sneetches — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:07:51 -0800

I've come to the conclusion that stupidity is a limitless form of energy. The hype, the misreporting, the misplaced beliefs and the sheer force of futility that went into this represent a force that will never dim.

By: Twang

Twang — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:10:36 -0800

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. What does a belief require? No more than a royal road. "Ptolemy asked the mathematician if there was some easier way to learn geometry than by learning all the theorems. Euclid replied, "There is no royal road to geometry" and sent the king to study."

By: NailsTheCat

NailsTheCat — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:12:40 -0800

Just while we're on the subject of thermodynamics' laws... I found it interesting to learn in university of the zeroth (0th) law of thermodynamics. (They realised they needed it after they had already invented the first three and didn't like to shuffle 'em all up one.) Well I found it interesting.

By: arialblack

arialblack — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 18:16:19 -0800

a watched pot never boils.

By: papakwanz

papakwanz — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:43:30 -0800

By: Navelgazer

Navelgazer — Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:00:20 -0800

Navelgazer: that actually kind of works. It's called the 'slingshot effect'; if you orbit a body at the right angle, you can actually gain speed by doing so. But it's a one-shot deal; you approach, slingshot, and move away at higher speed. You don't get infinite acceleration. posted by Malor Malor, that particular idea wasn't meant to provide anyone with fere energy (how could it be harnessed, really, even if not for the rotation-slowing aspects) but rather as one smart-ass' idea of how to overcome the known rules of physics by utilizing other known rules of physics, all coming from the brain of someone who doesn't know science all that well. If it worked, why, it'd prove nothing less than how awesome I am! We must get on this immediately! Also, I know of the slingshot effect, but the idea of this would be to find an exact, ever decreasing trajectory with ever increasing velocity - two things which are, by nature, incompatible. Still, if you don't think about it too much, it's great fodder for a sci-fi social satire I've had in mind for some time now. (In my planned novel, it doesn't actually work, but rather just kills all of the upper class who put their assets in order to arrive in the future even richer than they were before.)

By: Sticherbeast

Sticherbeast — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 00:58:41 -0800

Incidentally, it seems that the Steorn folks have allies in high - very high - places. I was hoping that link would go to an Erowid page.

By: From Bklyn

From Bklyn — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 02:58:19 -0800

These were all really interesting comments. So, is it working yet?

By: cosmac

cosmac — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 04:24:15 -0800

Due to "technical problems", Steorn has decided to postpone the demonstration until further notice.

By: Optimus Chyme

Optimus Chyme — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 07:22:15 -0800

How will we spin our clear polycarbonate wheels now?!?!

By: Deathalicious

Deathalicious — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 09:47:53 -0800

Hey, quick question. The force of gravity on Earth is constant-ish. If you could create something that responded to that constant force somehow, wouldn't that behave *like* a perpetual machine? I mean, if the energy was coming from the fact that gravity exists. Or do you need more than just a force to have energy?

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:01:39 -0800

Like, say, a hydro-electric dam? Hydro-power works because the sun evaporates the "spent" water, then it rains down again, and again drives the turbines. (Funny how most energy on Earth is derived from solar power -- I guess you could say it's all nuclear, when it comes down to it!) I think you'll find that most perpetual motion machines attempt to harness gravity, in one way or another. And it'll work, too, until you have to hoist the weight back up to the position it started from using the energy that was gained by dropping the weight to begin with.

By: LordSludge

LordSludge — Fri, 06 Jul 2007 11:50:33 -0800

Of course there's such a thing as "free" as in "energy-that-nobody-wants": Tiny generator turns vibrations into eletricity (via)

By: ikkyu2

ikkyu2 — Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:26:51 -0800

A museum's not a bad place for this kind of thing; the old L.A. Museum of Science and Industry had a bunch of "working" models of antique proposed perpetual-motion machines, connected to small motors to keep them running, and captioned with very careful, eloquent descriptions of the flaws that prevented them from running at even 100% efficiency, necessitating motor input. I wish I could be amazed that anyone would show up to a demo of a perpetual motion machine in 2007 with their tongue not in their cheek. But I'm not.

By: ikkyu2

ikkyu2 — Sat, 07 Jul 2007 12:31:06 -0800

Hm. Maybe a wealthy billionaire who prefers to remain nameless actually is funding Steorn. Here's how it would go down: You set up a bunch of Steorn demonstrations, one in every major city in the world. The machine is jiggered so that it has a hidden depleting battery or other invisible source of external power input. It appears to function as a perpetual motion machine. You charge a bit of money to let people in to see, and you make them swipe their drivers' license, CC, or other unique personal identifier. Eventually you have a database of everyone in the world's major cities who would shell out cash to see this thing. Then, the wealthy billionaire orders a hit on each one of them. Feckless credulity is extinguished from the gene pool forever. Brilliant!

By: weapons-grade pandemonium

weapons-grade pandemonium — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 01:37:50 -0800

Alternative scenario: They've built a photoelectric device that runs off the camera lights. This test was the setup--it was designed to fail. The skeptics had a good laugh. Next, they'll set up a transparent shield of some sort to "insulate" their machine from the camera lights, which were "obviously" the problem. In the next demonstration the machine will work. Few will suspect that the camera lights are providing the energy because their effect in the first instance was presumed to be negative, and there is now a "shield". Reverse psychology. The believers laugh at the skeptics, and the money rolls in.

By: From Bklyn

From Bklyn — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:56:38 -0800

I'm not sure I read this right, but, uh, I kind of get the impression no one thinks this will work. All these spooky alternate scenarios and stuff. I mean, they said they just needed to do some more tinkering and then they will have successfully rewritten the laws of physics as we have known them for some four hundred years...

By: thatwhichfalls

thatwhichfalls — Sun, 08 Jul 2007 13:33:54 -0800

"The second law of thermodynamics holds, I think, the supreme position among the laws of Nature. If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations - then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation, well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but collapse in deepest humiliation." (A.S. Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World, Macmillan, New York, 1948, p. 74)

By: From Bklyn

From Bklyn — Wed, 11 Jul 2007 05:27:20 -0800

First of all, thatwhichfalls, I think you're just being negative and you know, a little hope can go a long way - didn't you read Jonathan Livingston Seagull? Secongly, in case anyone is still reading this thread, here's the PLANS! so we can all build our own Orbo's! Check your brains at the door and - free energy for everyone!!!